@Grant I have a multi-generational family of veterans and clergy and would like to offer a different frame.
Reza Aslan has this great quote, "most religious people say 'my faith forms my values', when in truth we shape our religions to match our deepest convictions. It's more true to say 'my values define my faith'
So, YES, there are some core beliefs that ATTRACT people to an institution, AND the institution will inundate its acolytes with structures, policies, practices in order to shape them into a new mold.
YES, the Military may attract the bad boy, rough neck AND it counters that in boot camp with 'YOU are nothing. WE are everything'
YES, the martial arts may attract the bad boy, rough neck AND it counters that ego with patient practice
YES, I grew up in an evangelical church and also felt it made sense to vote republican as an early adult AND the deeper I got into church tradition, and finding mysticism, the more expansive I saw the universe where I am more likely to vote democrat these days.
What's also interesting is the personal path that's woven in all of these. I know several vets coming back from combat proud of their service, and others become much more ponderous and philosophical about war, and yet they all went through the same routines, practices, and policies.
Marc- I wonder about the military changing mindsets. I might be confused on the term "mindset"- but I tend to think of mindsets as complex frames with which people use to make sense of the world. They run incoming perceptions through the frame and that results in a model of the world inside our brains that helps us deal with complexity. That model- as all models are- is flawed and highly influenced by our frame- which is biased towards our internal propensities (5 factor psychological model for a simplistic example).
So, the military experience might make a few minor changes to our mindsets, but, for the most part we will not change our mindset all that much, but, instead incorporate the military experience within our mindset. The military experience would change behavior, but not necessarily mindsets. So- for instance- Liberals don't go through Basic and then start voting Republican all of a sudden. We might change some of our behavior - but that can be from the motivation to avoid punishment vice a change in mindset.
I'm not really sure I've read anything or experienced anything that led me to believe that adults can change their mindset much more than a few degrees. We can definitely see evidence where processes changed behavior- but I'm not sure behavior necessarily changes how people think.
I tend to operate on a model that assumes people have a 'stack' of mindsets; some very profound and some more ephemeral.
I'll agree that the most profound ones likely aren't changed, but I'll suggest that (as someone outside the military) there is a difference in the 'way of being' that I see in military folks, and that I saw unfolded in my two kids who served.
Excellent examples offered here Marc!
@Grant I have a multi-generational family of veterans and clergy and would like to offer a different frame.
Reza Aslan has this great quote, "most religious people say 'my faith forms my values', when in truth we shape our religions to match our deepest convictions. It's more true to say 'my values define my faith'
So, YES, there are some core beliefs that ATTRACT people to an institution, AND the institution will inundate its acolytes with structures, policies, practices in order to shape them into a new mold.
YES, the Military may attract the bad boy, rough neck AND it counters that in boot camp with 'YOU are nothing. WE are everything'
YES, the martial arts may attract the bad boy, rough neck AND it counters that ego with patient practice
YES, I grew up in an evangelical church and also felt it made sense to vote republican as an early adult AND the deeper I got into church tradition, and finding mysticism, the more expansive I saw the universe where I am more likely to vote democrat these days.
What's also interesting is the personal path that's woven in all of these. I know several vets coming back from combat proud of their service, and others become much more ponderous and philosophical about war, and yet they all went through the same routines, practices, and policies.
Fascinating.
Thanks for the post & comment.
Marc- I wonder about the military changing mindsets. I might be confused on the term "mindset"- but I tend to think of mindsets as complex frames with which people use to make sense of the world. They run incoming perceptions through the frame and that results in a model of the world inside our brains that helps us deal with complexity. That model- as all models are- is flawed and highly influenced by our frame- which is biased towards our internal propensities (5 factor psychological model for a simplistic example).
So, the military experience might make a few minor changes to our mindsets, but, for the most part we will not change our mindset all that much, but, instead incorporate the military experience within our mindset. The military experience would change behavior, but not necessarily mindsets. So- for instance- Liberals don't go through Basic and then start voting Republican all of a sudden. We might change some of our behavior - but that can be from the motivation to avoid punishment vice a change in mindset.
I'm not really sure I've read anything or experienced anything that led me to believe that adults can change their mindset much more than a few degrees. We can definitely see evidence where processes changed behavior- but I'm not sure behavior necessarily changes how people think.
I tend to operate on a model that assumes people have a 'stack' of mindsets; some very profound and some more ephemeral.
I'll agree that the most profound ones likely aren't changed, but I'll suggest that (as someone outside the military) there is a difference in the 'way of being' that I see in military folks, and that I saw unfolded in my two kids who served.
...but an interesting topic to excavate a bit.